[Holeydonut]

I guess to sum up our disagreements I’m saying that economic factors will be the primary decider for 99%. This is how our federal government is pushing change now, with money. I want to clean up my footprint and it’s economically viable for me to do so with the PHEV now, the solar on my house, my business and our garden. However there are a lot of considerations and consequences to looking at it from an environmental only perspective, which it seems is inextricably tied to politics. The technology is not there yet environmentally or economically and we need to carefully plot a course through the middle ground. Some of the ideas about green energy will forever be impossible, this I attribute to a failure to understand the realities of how they work and the inevitable economics of it all. I think we are doing a great job and headed in the right direction, but some will never be satisfied and a lot of that comes from a top down perspective of privilege politically anyways. As I worked my way up from the bottom in the rust belt, I cannot help but see the other end. There is a clear social economic perspective on this and all EV message boards, we should be mindful where most GM customers are coming from and not forget about them.

The people who can afford to buy my solar systems and get federal tax benefits are clearly in the upper middle class. Same applies for the people getting full EV tax credits. With more then 60% if the country now living paycheck to paycheck, there is a huge disconnect politically.

For someone who doesn't want to discuss politics; you seem to see things from a political lens. I think you should consider that it sounds like you've chosen to assign a political agenda onto topics that most had zero intention of having a political slant. (@EVTrucking please correct me if I'm wrong), discussing a desire to reduce carbon emissions in a truck that we could live with every day was just that... no politics.

If you think there's a political undertone (Donkey vs Elephant) around policy, agendas, privilege, etc ... that's on you. That includes bringing in geo-political (China vs USA) or brining in socio-political (poor vs wealthy) topics. While I agree major things affecting millions of people have many potentially political influences and externalities; forum banter talking about BEV/PHEV batteries is likely a conversation about the technology. Anyway, I urge you to please consider that some of us aren't simply considering economic or political factors for deciding on solar or EV investment. Some simply want to reduce carbon-emissions or reduce reliance on status quo energy providers.

But since you brought it up; California's utilities and the California PUC have also claimed that "solar benefits the upper-middle class". They have posited that Solar is only a bastion for wealthy people to transfer costs to lower classes. But, research suggests that many classes of people have benefited from solar. It's not a gate-kept technology for only a few. Also, the technology around solar has finally begun to mature to the extent that solar is now being enjoyed at the same distribution of income levels seen with home ownership. That means almost anyone with a home could enjoy the benefits of solar. So, it's kind of sad that now that solar is attainable by the majority, the California utilities want to slow residential solar adoption.

California’s middle-income residents outpace wealthy in rooftop solar installations in 2021

Middle-income and working-class Californians represented by far the largest block of the million-plus households in the state that installed rooftop solar in 2021, according to a new Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory study.

www.ewg.org

On a related note, I think BEV, PHEV, Hydrogen, and other clean-vehicle-tech are also in their infancy. It's likely the upper classes enjoy a disproportionate benefit now. But as the technology matures, we should see the benefits becoming attainable by all - including people in the "Rust Belt". Where I hope you and I align is on the concept that these trends are favorable and something we hope companies continue to invest in to make a reality.

 

[EVTrucking]

For someone who doesn't want to discuss politics; you seem to see things from a political lens. I think you should consider that it sounds like you've chosen to assign a political agenda onto topics that most had zero intention of having a political slant. (@EVTrucking please correct me if I'm wrong), discussing a desire to reduce carbon emissions in a truck that we could live with every day was just that... no politics.

If you think there's a political undertone (Donkey vs Elephant) around policy, agendas, privilege, etc ... that's on you. That includes bringing in geo-political (China vs USA) or brining in socio-political (poor vs wealthy) topics. While I agree major things affecting millions of people have many potentially political influences and externalities; forum banter talking about BEV/PHEV batteries is likely a conversation about the technology. Anyway, I urge you to please consider that some of us aren't simply considering economic or political factors for deciding on solar or EV investment. Some simply want to reduce carbon-emissions or reduce reliance on status quo energy providers.

But since you brought it up; California's utilities and the California PUC have also claimed that "solar benefits the upper-middle class". They have posited that Solar is only a bastion for wealthy people to transfer costs to lower classes. But, research suggests that many classes of people have benefited from solar. It's not a gate-kept technology for only a few. Also, the technology around solar has finally begun to mature to the extent that solar is now being enjoyed at the same distribution of income levels seen with home ownership. That means almost anyone with a home could enjoy the benefits of solar. So, it's kind of sad that now that solar is attainable by the majority, the California utilities want to slow residential solar adoption.

California’s middle-income residents outpace wealthy in rooftop solar installations in 2021

Middle-income and working-class Californians represented by far the largest block of the million-plus households in the state that installed rooftop solar in 2021, according to a new Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory study.

www.ewg.org

View attachment 994

On a related note, I think BEV, PHEV, Hydrogen, and other clean-vehicle-tech are also in their infancy. It's likely the upper classes enjoy a disproportionate benefit now. But as the technology matures, we should see the benefits becoming attainable by all - including people in the "Rust Belt". Where I hope you and I align is on the concept that these trends are favorable and something we hope companies continue to invest in to make a reality.

I totally agree.

I just want to do what seems to me be the right thing to do, especially knowing that the information available on anything is incomplete and generally has an agenda behind it.

 

[HawaiiEV]

Not sure what we are arguing about, seems like we agree on many things.

I have an opinion based on certain personal experiences I have and it relates to things I call realities, a good deal of it being economic. For example my wife is a school teacher and I install solar, we make a pretty good amount of money for where we live in Hawaii. We were able to buy our solar and it is taking many years to roll over and get back our federal tax credits, we had to give up some portion of our state credits because we didn’t have enough liability for a full claim. With one child now we don’t have enough tax liability to get back the full tax credit if we bought the Silverado, assuming it is less then $80k and I can even afford to buy it at all. But we have the solar and the PHEV my wife drives and I’m doing the best we can. I had the money saved up ahead of time to make the solar possible despite the long payback, for most the interest rates are seriously unfriendly now… this is all simple economics of living in a state where solar and driving off solar makes the most sense of anywhere in the country, by a large factor. You can toss environmental in there too because shipping anything to the middle of the pacific makes very little sense.

So when Tyler complains the range is too short, or the truck is too expensive for what it is or the charging sucks I Get It. As do I believe most Americans will. So I am very happy that you guys believe you are doing the right thing, I’m happy that you have the means to do so and will be able to charge off your solar during the day. I probably can’t, so I think I’ll be trying for the Tacoma Prime and wishing I could afford a real truck to do the things I have to for my work, but worry not cause there’s a guy I work with worse off then me who just got a Silverado diesel and anything I can’t fit he will. In the mean time I have to go do warranty replacements on a couple hundred pound Chinese batteries, but it could be worse and they could have bought a power wall and be getting No Service at all. Always sucks when your 60k solar system doesn’t work properly for months while waiting for parts to be replaced, that’s not a political opinion.

 

[EVTrucking]

Getting back to the intent of this thread which is range reduction due to cold weather I have read that the magnitude of reduction depends on the EV manufacturer and a number of external factors. This is also true for ICEs that can lose up to 24% mpg when driving locally on short trips where the engine never fully warms up.

My point is that EV range loss due to cold weather can in certain instances (long commutes in cold weather with insufficient charging network) make EV a poor choice. However, this will improve with a more mature and complete charging network, battery tech and larger battery packs.

For local commutes including hauling and towing current LD EV trucks are well suited and are as or more capable than LD ICE trucks.

Hopefully GM/Chevy will produce a descent LD WT at prices competitive with ICE. Remembering that EV trucks are cheaper to own and don’t exhaust!

 

[HawaiiEV]

To be seen 😂
Starting to sound like the guy who says the frunk will be redesigned to be larger and truck will beat its range estimate by 20%! Your brand new Chevy EV won’t have any problems and be cheaper to own then the Chevy small block which has been proven over decades to go 2-400k miles. Just ask the volt owners, focus ev and soon the bolt owners… must be some good koolaide you guys got in SoCal. Stop shipping it to Hawaii please.

It’s easy for me to forget that in some places the average length of car ownership is just a few years. I sold the 2006 Escalade this summer with 200k+ miles, still has plenty life left. The same will not be true for any EV, barring a revolution in battery technology and aftermarket upgrades. I bet fewer than 5% plan to keep their rivian or hummer ev past 100k miles to find out.

Before I rile you guys up again with my cheap shot, I want to clarify I’m not having this discussion to argue with you guys. You have already made up your minds and EV is the only option, other options are a “dirty” waste of money doomed to a history of regular maintenance and easy fuel ups. I’m discussing it so the 95% who are just browsing can get another perspective besides the koolaide, the people who plan to live with a new truck for 10+ years and have to make well reasoned financial decisions for their family’s. There’s three possibilities here, either I’m full of shit, you guys are or we both are. I readily admit to bull shitting on the internet so I’m leaning towards the last choice, but at least by BS comes with a 10 year warranty, I answer the phone and show up to fix it when your huge financial outlay goes wrong and needs fixing. 🤙 you guys are great don’t take it so hard, it’s just the internet.

 

[JRT]

EV kool-aid is very regional. I do like my mach-e, but there are numerous limitations to ownership. Range isn't an issue till you have to get a family emergency too far and too remote. Longevity isn't an issue till you are faced with a failed battery. As it stands, I'm very sure an affordable ev truck will be hard to ever make.

 

[Holeydonut]

@EVTrucking is gonna be so pissed that you think he’s in SoCal.

I agree, anyone who think a new EV truck will get them the same two decades ownership of a small block with regular maintenance is delusional. EV tech is in its infancy and cannot compare with designs and infrastructure that are decades old.

But I think it’s funny that you like to use pejoratives to describe wanting to reduce carbon emissions with a BEV. You realize you’re on a forum dedicated to BEV’s? If you think BEV’s aren’t the future, there are forums for the Toyota Mirai and Primes. They have lots more Kool Aid over there.

 

[HawaiiEV]

That’s the spirit! It’s all fun and games until someone gets labeled from SoCal 😂 anyways obviously I want the Silverado EV, I sold the Escalade counting on getting it. I just am not sure I can afford it. To be seen… I think it’s ok to BS a little bit, discuss things and express different opinions. This forum would be so boring otherwise.

 

[EVTrucking]

EV kool-aid is very regional. I do like my mach-e, but there are numerous limitations to ownership. Range isn't an issue till you have to get a family emergency too far and too remote. Longevity isn't an issue till you are faced with a failed battery. As it stands, I'm very sure an affordable ev truck will be hard to ever make.

Please define affordable and take into account reduced maintenance costs and tax incentives associated with EV trucks.

Once the charging network is built out range will not limit you. As far as battery failure that remains to be seen. I had my Prius for 16 yrs without issue.

I have had ICEs that had engine failure, transmission failure, timing chain failure, cooling failure, multiple battery failures (lead acid 12v) and empty gas tank that resulted in an immovable object.

You gloss over the 100+ yrs that it has taken for the absolutely essential and huge infrastructure that keeps ICEs on the road.

 

[EVTrucking]

That’s the spirit! It’s all fun and games until someone gets labeled from SoCal 😂 anyways obviously I want the Silverado EV, I sold the Escalade counting on getting it. I just am not sure I can afford it. To be seen… I think it’s ok to BS a little bit, discuss things and express different opinions. This forum would be so boring otherwise.

FWIW I am not from SoCal but so what if I was!

I stand by what I have posted.

LD EV trucks are not yet suited for every situation but are quite capable for a large number of situations and at affordable prices when considering tax incentives and reduced maintenance costs.

It is too early to conclude that EV trucks will not last as long as an ICE. There are a lot of Teslas with 200k miles or more on them. They are not piling up with spent batteries. New ICEs have nearly as electronics as EVs and are subject to the same failures.

 

[HawaiiEV]

Please define affordable and take into account reduced maintenance costs and tax incentives associated with EV trucks.

Once the charging network is built out range will not limit you. As far as battery failure that remains to be seen. I had my Prius for 16 yrs without issue.

I have had ICEs that had engine failure, transmission failure, timing chain failure, multiple battery failures (lead acid 12v) and empty gas tank that resulted in an immovable object.

You gloss over the 100+ yrs that it has taken for the absolutely essential and huge infrastructure that keeps ICEs on the road.

I just explained how as a couple making 6 figures we won’t qualify for the entire tax credit. Our Camry Hybrid did require a battery after I tried rebuilding it myself twice, totally worth it though… hybrid and PHEV batteries won’t total the car in todays market. I’ve never had a single ICE engine or transmission fail, unless you count my 2003 Arctic Cat 700 when the oil injection pump got an air bubble. Anecdotal information swings both ways.

If you think about our limited resources, typical commutes and cost of battery the PHEV really does make the most sense. It maximizes the use of expensive precious batteries for 90% of peoples commutes, then when you need to go longer where infrastructure is limited you have the totally reliable ICE engine and infrastructure to depend on. The replacement battery for my wife’s car is $10k from Toyota direct, that won’t total the car and it will have already paid for itself in 10 years. No doubt there will be cheaper aftermarket options too like on the regular hybrids, where they DO fail regularly.

 

[EVTrucking]

I just explained how as a couple making 6 figures we won’t qualify for the entire tax credit. Our Camry Hybrid did require a battery after I tried rebuilding it myself twice, totally worth it though… hybrid and PHEV batteries won’t total the car in todays market. I’ve never had a single ICE engine or transmission fail, unless you count my 2003 Arctic Cat 700 when the oil injection pump got an air bubble. Anecdotal information swings both ways.

If you think about our limited resources, typical commutes and cost of battery the PHEV really does make the most sense. It maximizes the use of expensive precious batteries for 90% of peoples commutes, then when you need to go longer where infrastructure is limited you have the totally reliable ICE engine and infrastructure to depend on. The replacement battery for my wife’s car is $10k from Toyota direct, that won’t total the car and it will have already paid for itself in 10 years. No doubt there will be cheaper aftermarket options too like on the regular hybrids, where they DO fail regularly.

I think you will get a lot more satisfaction on the hybrid forums. EV discussions seem to annoy and frustrate you.

Hybrids, which I have 16 yrs experience with are a good choice and IMHO a better choice than ICE. They bridge the gap from ICE to EV and beyond. For my needs, wants and life situation Hybrid was not enough.

I have owned two EVs for the last 11 months and 9,000 miles between them. No oil changes, no issues of any kind, no gas station stops, fast, no warming up, joy to drive, no brake wear, no smell of exhaust or gas when filling gas tank, ease of charging at home. My wife and I are not rich, the last vehicle we bought was 12 years ago. We saved and place a higher priority on owning an EV that you and many others.

Going Hybrid is a good plan and having a reservation for a Silverado EV is also a good backup plan.

However, to be honest I am not interested in knowing your financial or life circumstances. I assure you that your life’s situation is not unique. I do respect your opinion regarding Hybrid and reluctance to accept EVs minus the politics and personal revelations.

 

[HawaiiEV]

It’s just my opinion man, in a thread about why Tyler got rid of his EV truck. If you don’t care about me then don’t respond. Im personally happy for you, but in light of the info we are getting about the silverados pricing and options, I can’t help but play devils advocate. I actually need the truck and it would actually serve my purposes perfectly if I could afford it. I haven’t brought up any politics, that’s you attributing your politics to what im saying about the facts of economics and the supply chain. If it was politics then feel free to pigeon hole me on either side, cause you can’t. Unfortunately for you most people make decisions economically and “im doing it for the environment” is politics today, with matching economic policy that doesn’t really help out the middle or lower classes. Unless you think they all make $120k+ GM marketing lied about the Silverado EV pure and simple and neither side will tell you the truth about solar or EVs. Please don’t respond if you have nothing to add, I don’t need to be told to shut up because you’re a bigot. Like I said, I’m bringing facts and discussion about the issues so lurkers can make informed decisions. I’m happy for you, your EVs and the reason you chose to buy the luxury vehicles you have. Trucks like the Silverado are typically aimed at different buyers.

 

[EVTrucking]

Name calling, not good at all. Childish and immature. Totally unnecessary and unacceptable.

My apology for mentioning my EVs I should have known that you would see it as a brag. My only intent was to share my EV experience in an effort to help you understand EV ownership.

I have taken your suggestion and officially ignored you.

 

[JRT]

Lol, well I'm in pretty good financial shape, and did not get even close to a full credit on my 2021 taxes. A Toyota hybrid reliability is way different then a full ev. Maintenance cost is grossly over used as justification. I've owned my 2014 Ram 1500 crew cab, 6'4" bed, 4x4 since new. At 117k miles now my maintenance cost is the following ignoring tires and brakes which will still be an ev cost.

11 oil changes at every 10k miles per in truck monitoring at an average of $50 = $550
DIY sparkplug replacement was a material cost of $187
100k service which was front and rear diff fluid, transmission fluid, coolant, belt = $1089
My 1st out of warranty repair was at 115k miles and $900

Total $1745 divided by 8 years is $218.13 per year. Even doubling this still keeps per year cost well under $500. The inflated ev truck cost just do not make financial sense. That said I do really like my mach-e and would like an ev truck, but I'll have to see if I really want the inflated price when it finally arrives

 

[HawaiiEV]

He’s better off in his own little bubble, he can’t handle the truth, or should I say any opinion that’s not his own. I’m not sure why he thinks owning a luxury vehicle is a brag, it’s a fact, a fact that hasn’t escaped GM it seems. Meanwhile they are recalling every Bolt EV over fire risk again. I think pricing of new EVs is the number one problem that will prevent widespread adoption, especially for the big ones that require giant battery packs, and will require double the charge to make up for their poor efficacy. Certainly not very “environmental” to be driving a Silverado EV if you don’t need it. They rent RVs.

 

[tsuintx]

I have taken your suggestion and officially ignored you.

Damn... And I just got me a few more big bags of popcorn from Costco. Been going through them like crazy lately while reading this train wreck of a thread.

 

[HawaiiEV]

I enjoyed it, always nice to flame on a bit. 😂

 

[HawaiiEV]

How do you guys think the range will be at negative twelve degrees?

 

[HawaiiEV]

1.3 miles per kWh in the rivian. That’s a lot worse impact than any ICE would experience.