I generally am entertained by him, but he clearly wasn't a fan of an electric truck. I think he (and his co-owner) used this more as an excuse to turn a profit reselling it.
Tyler Hoover sold his F-150 Lightning because of cold weather range
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I think it has all been fair critique. If it only gets 100 miles range in winter or towing a small trailer, what good is it as a truck? Hopefully GM does better, but maybe the 40k WT does worse and only goes 80 miles.
It is true that EVs lose range in cold weather BUT not half unless there are other mitigating factors. I am not sure what the reviewer’s end game is
In my area the temperatures are between 45 and 15 degrees F and I roughly estimate a 10% hit for both of my EVs.
Aside from towing a big boxy thing the biggest hits to range for me so far are grade incline and headwind. A strong head wind on flat highway can drive range way down. These same conditions will also significantly reduce range in ICEs as well. Just keep the gas flowing into your tank! Also, cold weather reduces MPG!
In my area the temperatures are between 45 and 15 degrees F and I roughly estimate a 10% hit for both of my EVs.
Aside from towing a big boxy thing the biggest hits to range for me so far are grade incline and headwind. A strong head wind on flat highway can drive range way down. These same conditions will also significantly reduce range in ICEs as well. Just keep the gas flowing into your tank! Also, cold weather reduces MPG!
Just putting on a debbie downer hat for a second, I don't think EV trucks are ready yet for the traditional truck crowd. I feel these early forays into EV trucks may do more harm than good. If a normal "work truck" buyer is converted to an EV truck, but is then let down by that truck, they'll carry negative POVs/baggage that hinders future adoption. And those that hate EVs already get a ton of ammunition around why EVs suck in general due to a few negative experiences.
While I think existing EV trucks (Rivian R1T and Lightning) are great vehicles, they seem to be lackluster trucks. Sure they have a truck shape to them, but the aren't useful for the work-truck attributes of being workhorses to haul heavy loads or folks through challenging environments. They're basically mid/high end luxe-boxes with a cargo bed. The moment the "truck folk" really want these things to tow a Class IV load or do a long-trip, there are a ton of concessions and limitations.
I liked that research that I posted here indicated that these recent EV trucks are actually attracting folks who aren't existing truck buyers. Ideally these current/upcoming EV trucks carry with them car-like expectations so they don't disappoint the buyer. But if a traditionally truck-centric buyer gets one of these EV trucks to do what they think trucks are for, I think they'll come away discouraged. And those that hate EVs will use this discouragement as evidence of all EVs being bad. Rather than the EV truck offerings are currently not a fit for the traditional truck buyer.
Edit: here's the link to the research: Automotive News: Autolist research ranking interest in...
My alternative to a Sierra EV is literally a Tesla Model S or BMW IX. I don't plan on doing much "real truck" stuff with this truck at all. If I ever have to do a "real truck" activity requiring towing or a long trip, I'd rather just rent a ICE truck for that trip. I just hope guys like Tyler Hoover don't use this experience to de-list any future EV truck from consideration. What isn't ready today may be ready tomorrow.
While I think existing EV trucks (Rivian R1T and Lightning) are great vehicles, they seem to be lackluster trucks. Sure they have a truck shape to them, but the aren't useful for the work-truck attributes of being workhorses to haul heavy loads or folks through challenging environments. They're basically mid/high end luxe-boxes with a cargo bed. The moment the "truck folk" really want these things to tow a Class IV load or do a long-trip, there are a ton of concessions and limitations.
I liked that research that I posted here indicated that these recent EV trucks are actually attracting folks who aren't existing truck buyers. Ideally these current/upcoming EV trucks carry with them car-like expectations so they don't disappoint the buyer. But if a traditionally truck-centric buyer gets one of these EV trucks to do what they think trucks are for, I think they'll come away discouraged. And those that hate EVs will use this discouragement as evidence of all EVs being bad. Rather than the EV truck offerings are currently not a fit for the traditional truck buyer.
Edit: here's the link to the research: Automotive News: Autolist research ranking interest in...
My alternative to a Sierra EV is literally a Tesla Model S or BMW IX. I don't plan on doing much "real truck" stuff with this truck at all. If I ever have to do a "real truck" activity requiring towing or a long trip, I'd rather just rent a ICE truck for that trip. I just hope guys like Tyler Hoover don't use this experience to de-list any future EV truck from consideration. What isn't ready today may be ready tomorrow.
I think Tyler has standard Midwest truck expectations, he lives there. GM is marketing the truck as a truck, with videos of it pulling giant step down transformers on lowboy trailers. I’m sure ford has been doing the same. Their traditional truck buyers will be disappointed with price, towing and cold weather performance. But maybe GM surprises us all with a double sized frunk and 479 miles real world Range, 309 while towing… /S
I also expect east coast and west coast cities to be full of expensive luxury EV trucks not doing any truck things and getting half the efficiency of EV crossovers, while being parked like ass holes. No doubt still mumbling bigoted comments about people who live in “fly over states” and use work trucks to make a living.
If I can afford it, I will be using mine to do truck things like installing solar panels in Hawaii where cold and range won’t be an issue.
I also expect east coast and west coast cities to be full of expensive luxury EV trucks not doing any truck things and getting half the efficiency of EV crossovers, while being parked like ass holes. No doubt still mumbling bigoted comments about people who live in “fly over states” and use work trucks to make a living.
If I can afford it, I will be using mine to do truck things like installing solar panels in Hawaii where cold and range won’t be an issue.
While it didn't meet his expectations, it doesn't hold much weight with how high demand for these pickups is and will be for a while. Some severe issue that can lead to mass recalls might.
No doubt that current EV truck offerings are more than capable for the significantly large segment of folks that don’t use them as trucks. My guess is that of all the truck sales only 30-40% use them as trucks.
When talking about F150 or Chevy 1500 (1/4 ton class) the EV trucks equal or exceed them except for having a completely built out infrastructure.
Those of you pulling RVs know that your MPG falls to half or less when pulling. The saving grace is that you have big gasoline tanks and lots of places to pull in and pour more gasoline into those storage tanks. On the downside significantly more toxic gasses and particles are spewing out the ass end of your truck for the enjoyment of the folks driving behind you.
A lot of truck work stuff does not require HD trucks and with a few adjustments to attitude current EV trucks can be used day in and day out hauling lumber, tools, materials to/from/on job sites. And it does this without spewing crap into anyone’s face. They don’t fall apart in the mud or grime or get stuck.
When talking about F150 or Chevy 1500 (1/4 ton class) the EV trucks equal or exceed them except for having a completely built out infrastructure.
Those of you pulling RVs know that your MPG falls to half or less when pulling. The saving grace is that you have big gasoline tanks and lots of places to pull in and pour more gasoline into those storage tanks. On the downside significantly more toxic gasses and particles are spewing out the ass end of your truck for the enjoyment of the folks driving behind you.
A lot of truck work stuff does not require HD trucks and with a few adjustments to attitude current EV trucks can be used day in and day out hauling lumber, tools, materials to/from/on job sites. And it does this without spewing crap into anyone’s face. They don’t fall apart in the mud or grime or get stuck.
Most ice trucks are pretty clean now, since they are the default I’m not sure there’s a saving grace or that they should be labeled as bad or dirty, they are the standard. The EV trucks have to prove themselves as an affordable and capable alternative to what are some the best and most capable ICE trucks ever. That’s all that matters. Lots of people on the lower end of the economic spectrum depend on them for what they are made for, everyone on the upper end of the spectrum depends on them doing the job. there are people driving them as luxury cars and clearly that’s what the EV trucks are targeting, maybe for these people the lack of capability and obviously price are not important and environmental benefits could be argued for, but again wouldn’t they be better served with a much more efficient CUV? Environmentally speaking anyways…
Edit: I was curious so I looked it up carbon emissions for a model x in Kansas is 150 g per mile, a highlander v6 is 380 g per mile, 440 g per mile for a turbo 4 Silverado or 500 for the v8. I’m guessing the Silverado EV will be half the efficiency of the X so about 300 g for the Silverado EV. Of course the EVs have to overcome a carbon deficit from manufacturing, the giant battery in the Silverado doubly so. In that context It sure doesn’t make sense to label the ICE vehicles as super dirty compared to EV. Of course ICE has particulates, carbon monoxide and sulfur, which I’m much more worried about personally. These come out of the manufacturing and power generation for EVs also. If you can charge off solar like me, good for you and count yourself as part of an ultra exclusive minority.
Edit: I was curious so I looked it up carbon emissions for a model x in Kansas is 150 g per mile, a highlander v6 is 380 g per mile, 440 g per mile for a turbo 4 Silverado or 500 for the v8. I’m guessing the Silverado EV will be half the efficiency of the X so about 300 g for the Silverado EV. Of course the EVs have to overcome a carbon deficit from manufacturing, the giant battery in the Silverado doubly so. In that context It sure doesn’t make sense to label the ICE vehicles as super dirty compared to EV. Of course ICE has particulates, carbon monoxide and sulfur, which I’m much more worried about personally. These come out of the manufacturing and power generation for EVs also. If you can charge off solar like me, good for you and count yourself as part of an ultra exclusive minority.
I own a 2021 Mach-e, std range. My comfortable 220 miles in summer Temps in Huntsville AL drop to 170 miles in middle winter. This makes the car much harder to live with and adjust too. 90% of our use is perfect, around town, 100 mile trip to parents house (they have a 220 outlet installed just for me to charge at). But longer trips with still not enough fast charging stations in our Southeast state travels is a problem. There is no way after 18 months and 17k miles of EV driving that my next EV will have less then 300 miles range.
Living in warm states with plenty of charges for trips, or never actually driving on road trips probably means EV low range is a non issue. But with the mass market appeal and I'd say aggressive push to EV going on, there are a lot of use cases still not able to be EV viable.
Living in warm states with plenty of charges for trips, or never actually driving on road trips probably means EV low range is a non issue. But with the mass market appeal and I'd say aggressive push to EV going on, there are a lot of use cases still not able to be EV viable.
Agreed that truck EVs have yet to prove themselves as reliable but they certainly have the capability and more for most things trucks are used for. They also have the real potential to be more reliable!!!
ICEs Being the standard does not mean it’s the best choice. Yes they are less polluting but far from clean especially for drivers on the road with them. I am not talking global warming I am talking direct intake directly from the source.
The F150 Lightning targets the entire LD truck market not just Luxury. The problem is not capability but quantity. That is why they are so sought after.
GM/Chevy has the same goal in mind as will Ram and Toyota.
I have owned trucks for 50+ years and the only thing I have not used them routinely for is heavy towing. Used them to move households, haul building materials, landscaping, rocks, pulling stumps, camping, hauling hay, hauling firewood and more and the F150 WT or possible Silverado WT or my R1T is more than capable of doing all of that and more.
I have towed a few fifth wheels and cars on trailers and and know by experience that this can result in MPGs in the 3-8 mpg for a truck that gets 15-17 mpg not towing.
No argument that for HD towing current EV trucks are incapable.
No argument that significant numbers folks owning expensive LD and HD ICE trucks could do with an EV SUV/CUV.
Lets not forget that current and planned LD EV trucks are faster, have more Hp and torque for slightly more money. What they lack is proven reliability, more mature charging network, availability and of course no exhaust pipe. Just maybe not having an exhaust pipe and a small attitude change is worth paying a bit more for.
The large numbers of reservations for CT, Lightning, Silverado EV and even the R1T speak loudly to their broad based appeal and usefulness as trucks.
ICEs Being the standard does not mean it’s the best choice. Yes they are less polluting but far from clean especially for drivers on the road with them. I am not talking global warming I am talking direct intake directly from the source.
The F150 Lightning targets the entire LD truck market not just Luxury. The problem is not capability but quantity. That is why they are so sought after.
GM/Chevy has the same goal in mind as will Ram and Toyota.
I have owned trucks for 50+ years and the only thing I have not used them routinely for is heavy towing. Used them to move households, haul building materials, landscaping, rocks, pulling stumps, camping, hauling hay, hauling firewood and more and the F150 WT or possible Silverado WT or my R1T is more than capable of doing all of that and more.
I have towed a few fifth wheels and cars on trailers and and know by experience that this can result in MPGs in the 3-8 mpg for a truck that gets 15-17 mpg not towing.
No argument that for HD towing current EV trucks are incapable.
No argument that significant numbers folks owning expensive LD and HD ICE trucks could do with an EV SUV/CUV.
Lets not forget that current and planned LD EV trucks are faster, have more Hp and torque for slightly more money. What they lack is proven reliability, more mature charging network, availability and of course no exhaust pipe. Just maybe not having an exhaust pipe and a small attitude change is worth paying a bit more for.
The large numbers of reservations for CT, Lightning, Silverado EV and even the R1T speak loudly to their broad based appeal and usefulness as trucks.
I am one of those East Coasters that @HawaiiEV was talking about. Besides a daily driver, I plan to use mine for hauling DIY loads from Home Depot and moving my kids to/from college. While I have always acknowledged the utility of trucks, I have never been interesting in owning one before the F150 Lightning/Silverado EV. My three reasons for not wanting a truck are 1) Price, 2) Fuel Economy, & 3) protected storage for smaller loads (eg Grocery store trips). EV Trucks (F-150 Ligntening Pro/Silverado EV WT) are similar in price to other EVs that I am looking at so that resolves my first reason. While ICE trucks are definitely improving on their own, being an EV resolves my second reason. The frunk solves my third reason.
Don't discount first time truck owners like me. We will be happy with the EV trucks that do not fully match the utility of ICE trucks and it will give the manufactures time to improve to the point where they do match (or exceed) ICE trucks.
Don't discount first time truck owners like me. We will be happy with the EV trucks that do not fully match the utility of ICE trucks and it will give the manufactures time to improve to the point where they do match (or exceed) ICE trucks.
I agree with everything you said, but the price reason will most likely not hold up to be true. The $40000 model will be very elusive if not completely unavailable. I'm expecting $60000 and up, at which point I will not be a customer.I am one of those East Coasters that @HawaiiEV was talking about. Besides a daily driver, I plan to use mine for hauling DIY loads from Home Depot and moving my kids to/from college. While I have always acknowledged the utility of trucks, I have never been interesting in owning one before the F150 Lightning/Silverado EV. My three reasons for not wanting a truck are 1) Price, 2) Fuel Economy, & 3) protected storage for smaller loads (eg Grocery store trips). EV Trucks (F-150 Ligntening Pro/Silverado EV WT) are similar in price to other EVs that I am looking at so that resolves my first reason. While ICE trucks are definitely improving on their own, being an EV resolves my second reason. The frunk solves my third reason.
Don't discount first time truck owners like me. We will be happy with the EV trucks that do not fully match the utility of ICE trucks and it will give the manufactures time to improve to the point where they do match (or exceed) ICE trucks.
Unfortunately you are probably right about that point. Since I don’t need a new vehicle right now and am willing to wait, I am hoping that I will be able to get one under $50k.I agree with everything you said, but the price reason will most likely not hold up to be true. The $40000 model will be very elusive if not completely unavailable. I'm expecting $60000 and up, at which point I will not be a customer.
I think when the time comes the price difference between the cheapest ICE truck and cheapest EV truck will not be that much and will be well worth it. No exhaust, no gas, no oil changes and good for you and the folks around you.Unfortunately you are probably right about that point. Since I don’t need a new vehicle right now and am willing to wait, I am hoping that I will be able to get one under $50k.
It’s just not possible with the price of lithium batteries going up. The cost of the 400 mile pack is $40k now and will soon be more. We bottomed at $138 per kwh. I’ve got no problem with city dwellers and suburban folks owning trucks that trend started long ago. I am a little bitter that the result is pushing trucks upmarket, especially the EV trucks now. This will push the pricing out of affordability for me who could afford a nice one before and certainly those who could only afford a WT. I’m also a little bitter that over all the years I owned trucks to work in the city doing concrete and other work, getting keyed 3 different times and yelled at for being environmentally insensitive, that now that trucks are EV and still terrible efficiency suddenly it’s “cool” and in to drive them for pleasure in the cities. How many tech reviewers loving on the Hummer EV, it’s still a terrible vehicle for the city and horrendous efficiency, it’s a fucking Hummer. GMs marketing and everyone else’s around the EV doesn’t help, all they want is more profits yet now they can market their giant work trucks as “woke”. To people who really don’t need them or a battery pack even half the size, anything but environmental or efficient. It is big a roomy for hauling, it’s fast and it’s cool.
Edit pro tip for new full-size truck owners, park at the back and walk.
Edit pro tip for new full-size truck owners, park at the back and walk.
I disagree that EV trucks are for city folks. If the farm, cabin, has electricity then EV trucks can do everything ICE trucks can with the exception of long distance heavy hauling.It’s just not possible with the price of lithium batteries going up. The cost of the 400 mile pack is $40k now and will soon be more. We bottomed at $138 per kwh. I’ve got no problem with city dwellers and suburban folks owning trucks that trend started long ago. I am a little bitter that the result is pushing trucks upmarket, especially the EV trucks now. This will push the pricing out of affordability for me who could afford a nice one before and certainly those who could only afford a WT. I’m also a little bitter that over all the years I owned trucks to work in the city doing concrete and other work, getting keyed 3 different times and yelled at for being environmentally insensitive, that now that trucks are EV and still terrible efficiency suddenly it’s “cool” and in to drive them for pleasure in the cities. How many tech reviewers loving on the Hummer EV, it’s still a terrible vehicle for the city and horrendous efficiency, it’s a fucking Hummer. GMs marketing and everyone else’s around the EV doesn’t help, all they want is more profits yet now they can market their giant work trucks as “woke”.
Not sure you have noticed but the price of ICE trucks is rising as is most other stuff.
I completely agree that EV trucks do not meet all folks needs and for now they still have excellent ICE choices. ICE trucks are less expensive.
EV adoption/implementation is in it’s infancy but will advance and mature to where it meets everyone’s needs/wants. That will of course lead to whole new set of problems to solve.
Put your lighter items affected by wind behind the cab, heavy items go with your cooler against the tailgate, easy on the inputs.
I disagree that EV trucks are for city folks. If the farm, cabin, has electricity then EV trucks can do everything ICE trucks can with the exception of long distance heavy hauling.
Not sure you have noticed but the price of ICE trucks is rising as is most other stuff.
I completely agree that EV trucks do not meet all folks needs and for now they still have excellent ICE choices. ICE trucks are less expensive.
EV adoption/implementation is in it’s infancy but will advance and mature to where it meets everyone’s needs/wants. That will of course lead to whole new set of problems to solve.
Cold-weather range is also an issue; a bunch of people north of the Sun Belt are going to see diminished range. The 400+ mile extended battery option will likely make up a small portion of overall product mix.
But your comment about the adoption curve is also something I feel a lot of folks are missing out on. While BEV cars and BEV CUVs are a bit more mature than light trucks, overall EV market share is still very low compared to a normal mid/full adoption S-curve. When a technology is new, only a certain group of people can reasonably afford that technology and incorporate it into their daily lives.
It's a bit of a pipe dream for someone to expect a $50,000 truck (expressed in today's dollars) that literally swaps in and provides all the capabilities of an existing ICE truck that is matured 100 years. But a lot of posts on this forum and comments on other auto-sites show how people want an EV today (or in 2024) to be some magic solution. That's just not realistic. A BEV today comes with it the concession of a high price, range anxiety, sub-par interior, and annoying CEOs. PHEVs are a reasonable middle-ground technology (Volt, Toyota Prime, Volvo Recharge, etc) to bridge the gap, but they have a stiff price premium too. The government will try to address the price/anxiety issue by throwing money at buyers and the charging network, it'll still take decades before the product is mature enough to satisfy the normal buyer's wants at an affordable price point
I tend to forget that I am an old fart that still clearly remembers gas rationing back in the mid 70’s. Waiting for hours with the hope there would be some gas left by the time I got to the pump. Etched into that memory is the knowledge that big oil had us by the dangly’s and have continued to this day to suppress any innovation that would challenge their golden goose.Cold-weather range is also an issue; a bunch of people north of the Sun Belt are going to see diminished range. The 400+ mile extended battery option will likely make up a small portion of overall product mix.
But your comment about the adoption curve is also something I feel a lot of folks are missing out on. While BEV cars and BEV CUVs are a bit more mature than light trucks, overall EV market share is still very low compared to a normal mid/full adoption S-curve. When a technology is new, only a certain group of people can reasonably afford that technology and incorporate it into their daily lives.
It's a bit of a pipe dream for someone to expect a $50,000 truck (expressed in today's dollars) that literally swaps in and provides all the capabilities of an existing ICE truck that is matured 100 years. But a lot of posts on this forum and comments on other auto-sites show how people want an EV today (or in 2024) to be some magic solution. That's just not realistic. A BEV today comes with it the concession of a high price, range anxiety, sub-par interior, and annoying CEOs. PHEVs are a reasonable middle-ground technology (Volt, Toyota Prime, Volvo Recharge, etc) to bridge the gap, but they have a stiff price premium too. The government will try to address the price/anxiety issue by throwing money at buyers and the charging network, it'll still take decades before the product is mature enough to satisfy the normal buyer's wants at an affordable price point
View attachment 985
I have been waiting for EVs for nearly 50 years and tend to think other folks have have too but that is not the case. For most ICE is simply a part of life and they cannot see or relate it’s many negative sides.
My hope is that full EV adoption will not take decades.
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