[Burbman]

I keep seeing this article on the web stating that new studies show that it costs more to home charge an EV to travel 100 miles than it costs to fuel a similar ICE car so I put the numbers to the test comparing my wife's MME and my Kia Stinger.

MME gets roughly 4.5 miles per kWh, the Stinger gets ~25 mpg if I drive it nicely
Local Electrical Rates are $0.108854/kWh for residential usage over 600 kWh/mo, (lower rates apply with lower usage). Best gas price today for regular unleaded locally is $4.29/gal.
I added an extra $0.01/mile EV licensing surcharge to the MME (annual fee $160, vehicle currently 12 months old, current milage 16,000)
I added an extra $0.02/mile ICE maintenance cost ($100 every 5,000 miles for oil changes, etc.)

Bottom line, MME costs approx $3.42/100 miles, Stinger runs $19.16/100 miles. Can someone double check my math?

This would allow for an awful lot of inefficiencies in the charging process before it even came close to making the article true.

 

[EVTrucking]

I keep seeing this article on the web stating that new studies show that it costs more to home charge an EV to travel 100 miles than it costs to fuel a similar ICE car so I put the numbers to the test comparing my wife's MME and my Kia Stinger.

MME gets roughly 4.5 miles per kWh, the Stinger gets ~25 mpg if I drive it nicely
Local Electrical Rates are $0.108854/kWh for residential usage over 600 kWh/mo, (lower rates apply with lower usage). Best gas price today for regular unleaded locally is $4.29/gal.
I added an extra $0.01/mile EV licensing surcharge to the MME (annual fee $160, vehicle currently 12 months old, current milage 16,000)
I added an extra $0.02/mile ICE maintenance cost ($100 every 5,000 miles for oil changes, etc.)

Bottom line, MME costs approx $3.42/100 miles, Stinger runs $19.16/100 miles. Can someone double check my math?

This would allow for an awful lot of inefficiencies in the charging process before it even came close to making the article true.

Your math is correct. I think some of the articles are using public charging rates and or are pro oil/ICE.

I charge during off peak at $.08/kW when possible.

Going EV is not just about immediate financial justification. I am willing to pay more to own an EV as the local benefits (cleaner streets, air, towns and cities — I am not referring to global warming) of going Exhaustless is well worth it and in long view is financially justifiable. IMO going EV is the right thing to do.

The caveat is that currently EV ownership is not possible for most folks. In time it will be.

 

[HawaiiEV]

Your MME is getting 4.5 miles per kWh? You don’t drive highway? That’s a lot higher than I’ve ever heard for that car including my brothers. Thats about what my bosses model 3 gets without driving highway in Hawaii, which we don’t have.

 

[Burbman]

Your MME is getting 4.5 miles per kWh? You don’t drive highway? That’s a lot higher than I’ve ever heard for that car including my brothers. Thats about what my bosses model 3 gets without driving highway in Hawaii, which we don’t have.

Maybe 35% highway, 65% surface streets.

 

[HawaiiEV]

I don’t believe you are getting 4.5, better double check. Especially right now. My brother gets between 3.3 and 4 on his. The EPA puts it closer to 3 for the standard range.

Your KIA gets low MPG, your gas is high and your electric low. A more appropriate comparison would be a RAV4 hybrid at 38 mpg, electric average at a little over 16 cents a kWh plus 5-10% conversion loss and gas at the average of 3.50.

 

[HawaiiEV]

EPA says 33 kWh per 100 miles for the MME and 2.5 gallons per 100 for the rav4. So about $6 for 100 miles for the MME and $8.75 for the RAV4. RAV4 starts at 31k and the MME starts at 46k, so all we need to do is calculate maintenance over 100k between the two and see if the MSRP difference gap is made up. You save $3750 over gas for 100k miles, so do you think maintenance on a Toyota is going to cost over $11k for 100k miles?

 

[Holeydonut]

Yep, those who favor EVs/Plug-In-PHEV will tend to pick cost examples that favor that tech; while the others will naturally push their own position. I think that's why any reasonable consumer loses the ability to develop a proper inference and these stupid left/right arguments become mega distractions. So let's lay out some real examples for prospective Silverado EV buyers.

Foundational assumptions (please challenge/torpedo, but I'm trying to be fair).

1) I'm going to assume no towing since towing is a monster distraction to this analysis.

2) Since the closest light duty EV truck right now is the F150 Lightning, let's use that to determine how much electricity it takes to move the truck. Most of the forums/anecdotes for real-world non-towing experience I see put the F150 Lightning at 500 watt hours per mile... which is 2.0 miles per kWh. So for 100 driven miles, that is 50 kWh.

3) My neighbor with a Silverado 1500 5.3L Ecotec says he gets about 15 mpg on real-world MPG. This feels kind of low? So for the hell of it let's round up to 17 mpg. PS. I get 20 real world MPG in my current 4 cylinder Volvo, and I used to get 12 mpg in my Dodge Charger. So who the hell knows what non-towing-truck mpg you all get in your own light duty ICE trucks. I'm going with 17 mpg. That means 5.9 gallons of 87 octane per 100 miles.

So now it's time to lay out some tables. Everyone loves tables of numbers amirite?

EV charging Cost Spectrum @ 500 watt hours per mile

Per kWh electricity charge	Cost to charge for 50 kWh for 100 miles
$0.10 (10 mWh/yr solar costs $15k after tax incentives. Over 15 years life is $0.10/kWh)	$5.00
$0.20	$10.00
$0.30 (what it costs me if I off-peak-charge from the grid at home here in California/PG&E-land)	$15.00
$0.40	$20.00
$0.50	$25.00
$0.60 (what it costs me if I peak-charge from the grid at home here in California/PG&E-land)	$30.00
$0.70	$35.00
$0.80	$40.00
$0.90	$45.00
$1.00	$50.00
$1.10	$55.00
$1.20 (what it costs me if I peak-charge at a public charger here in Northern California)	$60.00
$1.30	$65.00
$1.40	$70.00
$1.50	$75.00

ICE fueling Cost Spectrum @ 17 mpg

$ per gallon	Cost to fuel 5.8823 gallons for 100 miles
$0.50	$2.94
$1.00	$5.88
$1.50	$8.82
$2.00	$11.76
$2.50	$14.71
$3.00 (Harris County, TX has 87 octane at this price today... almost lowest in the nation)	$17.65
$3.50 (AAA national average gas price as of Feb 2)	$20.59
$4.00	$23.53
$4.50 (1 gallon of 87 costs $4.49 up the street today)	$26.47
$5.00	$29.41
$5.50	$32.35
$6.00	$35.29
$6.50	$38.24
$7.00 (1 gallon of 91 cost me this when I saw those "Blame Biden" stickers on all the pumps)	$41.48

So yeah, if you cherry pick Harris County, TX gasoline prices and the ridiculous peak-time EV charging rate here in California, you could conclude EV charging is lunacy.

But then if you cherry pick my "home solar powered" EV charging rate against what I paid Chevron a few months ago for 91, it would seem like EVs are the only way to go.

Personally, I just paid $15k (after the federal tax incentive) to add a solar array on my rooftop that can generate 10,000 kWh (10 mWh) per year. This should reasonably charge the soon to be two BEVs in my household presumably for 15 years. My wife has so far 100% charged her Tesla from home... and I presume my vehicle could be about 90% home charged as well.

Anyway, cherry pick the situation that best describes how you'll be charging, and compare what you think makes sense. EVs don't make sense for everybody. ICE doesn't make sense for everybody. You're not everybody; you're an individual. The good thing is you will (soon) have choices, so pick the one that you want.

Edit, sorry I kept typing "before" tax incentives in my table... I meant after the 30% federal tax incentive.

 

[HawaiiEV]

Truth exists in the middle grey area not black and white extremes.

 

[Burbman]

EPA says 33 kWh per 100 miles for the MME and 2.5 gallons per 100 for the rav4. So about $6 for 100 miles for the MME and $8.75 for the RAV4. RAV4 starts at 31k and the MME starts at 46k, so all we need to do is calculate maintenance over 100k between the two and see if the MSRP difference gap is made up. You save $3750 over gas for 100k miles, so do you think maintenance on a Toyota is going to cost over $11k for 100k miles?

Well, Since I personally live where gas is over $4 and electricity is only $0.108, my math is going to favor the EV every time. If I lived in an oil state like TX or WY, my math would look very different. Also article was comparing EV to true ICE, not a hybrid.

 

[EVTrucking]

Well, Since I personally live where gas is over $4 and electricity is only $0.108, my math is going to favor the EV every time. If I lived in an oil state like TX or WY, my math would look very different. Also article was comparing EV to true ICE, not a hybrid.

The price of gasoline in TX currently is $3.21 so your math is still good for ICE and Hybrid. EV charging at home is the lowest cost option.

Hybrids are a good(better than all ICE) interim bridge to EV but they still have an exhaust pipe and are more complex than pure ICE or EV. Hybrid trucks do not get meaningful additional mpg.

 

[HawaiiEV]

EV trucks don’t get meaningful additional MPG 😂

A RAV4 with the 4 pot regular ice would still come out on top over 100k in a general comparison with average prices, hence the article you are referencing I haven’t read. I would argue if you extend it out to 150k the rav4 for sure comes out on top as the MME will be plagued by more reliability issues.

 

[Holeydonut]

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/electric-shock-study-found-evs-150000536.html

 

[EVTrucking]

There is also an intrinsic $value to driving an exhaustless EV related to the localized community. The cost for future cleanup and health is not included in gas prices.

EVs IMO are not the final/best solution but are a step in the right direction.

My more immediate concern is not global warming but having to breath in the exhaust from cars all around me.

 

[HawaiiEV]

In the north east the exhaust coming out of Toyotas newest engines is cleaner then the air already in the cities…

 

[Holeydonut]

In the north east the exhaust coming out of Toyotas newest engines is cleaner then the air already in the cities…

You couldn’t possibly believe this… would you rather sit in a garage with a RAV4 ICE running- or sit in a NYC apartment?

A Mirai or BEV Toyota is a different matter.

 

[HawaiiEV]

No I wouldn’t because of carbon monoxide. However the particulate content of the exhaust is lower than that going into the intake out on the street. Im very interested in avoiding even modern auto exhaust myself, where I live it’s the cleanest air in the world. I just can’t help playing devils advocate with EVtrucking since he such a true believer, yet continues with the hypocrisy of modern American urban consumerism. Justifications of environmentalism and efficiency for a 5 ton pickup are just plain dumb and ignorant.

 

[akldjian]

Just wanted to do my simple bird brain math. Rhetoric tells us EV is less expensive when it comes to maintenance. I'm going to give ICE the benefit of doubt and call maintenance a wash between EV and ICE. Because this is a Silverado forum, I'll use the Silverado EV and ICE as my base for calculation. I know there is a price difference in purchase. I'm not going to factor that. As an early EV adopter, I'm considering price as a luxury tax. So we're down to purely fuel cost. Let's do this.

In my area, Phoenix area, we have a Summer and Winter pricing. The difference being the peak (4pm - 7pm) rate in the summer is a penny more $0.29780. The off-peak (7pm - 4pm) is the same for both seasons $0.10790. In the winter, we get a bonus super off peak (10am - 3pm) @ $0.03166. Price for 87 gasoline in my area is currently at $3.59. Let's not bother thinking about how volatile price of gas can be $5 in a blink of an eye.

Let's first calculate the cost to fill the battery/tank. The Silverado EV has a 212kwh battery and the 5.3L & 6.2L both have a 24 gallon tank. Assuming 0 - 100%. I'm rounding EV cost per kWh up and rounding ice fuel cost down.
EV - 212 × $0.11 = $23.32 off peak charging
EV - 212 × $0.30 = $63.60 peak charging
ICE - 24 × $3.59 = $86.16

Now let's look at range. EV claim is 400 miles. For ICE, I'm going to base it on 20mpg even though the combined average is 17 for either the 5.3L or 6.2L. 24 gallon × 20 mpg = 480 miles.

Ok, finally tally. Cost ÷ Range = cost per mile
EV off peak - $23.32 ÷ 400 = $0.0583/mile
EV peak - $63.60 ÷ 400 = $0.159/mile
ICE $86.16 ÷ 480 = $0.1795/mile

Now, I gave all the leverage I can to ICE. My bird brain doesn't get it. With all the distractions out of the way, how the hell does it cost the same to fuel an EV as it does an equivalent ICE truck. Even if I'm a total idiot and all I do is charge during peak hours, I'm still saving $300 over a course of 15000 miles per year. That's not including the distractions like additional ICE maintenance cost, volatile fuel costs, EV savings from existing solar installations, etc.

For some of you thinking I'm on one side or the other of the ICE vs EV debate, I'm not. I'm never going to give up my 6.2L Camaro. But there is plenty of room to include an EV truck in our garage as well. Maybe I'm not the bird brain after all.

Tantrum over.

 

[Holeydonut]

...
EV - 212 × $0.11 = $23.32 off peak charging
EV - 212 × $0.30 = $63.60 peak charging
ICE - 24 × $3.59 = $86.16
...

The issue is the folks doing the "headline making ROI calcs" often pick the public charging rate at peak time. This can easily be 3x or more than the off-peak rate. Take that Yahoo link I post above... the headline is clickbait to say EV charging became more expensive than ICE fuel ups. But the article describes how most EV owners will pay less than ICE if they are smart about when they charge. Unfortunately, Yahoo needs the views/clicks so they'll post potentially misleading headlines because they don't care about public sentiment or improper inferences. They just want ad revenue.

So to understand the logic of those that want BEVs to fail, add a hypothetical cost row that reads:
EV peak charging at a public charger @ $0.60 per kWh:
212 x $0.60 = $127.20

And you can see with that wacky math, ICE takes the lead since there is no such thing as peak-pricing at a normal gasoline station. Well... I guess in the run up to a hurricane there's peak pricing, but you know what I mean hah. I think if you're a reasonable non-commercial user, you'd simply avoid charging at peak time and avoiding this particular high-cost charging scenario. Like most residential folks with BEVs simply charge overnight or at worst in the day-time at work before peak charges begin around 3 or 4pm.

But, this does pose a problem with fleet operators. A BEV truck could have use cases that are less residential and more commercial. And unfortunately, commercial energy consumption is not as easily modified to accomodate peak pricing rates. If you're running materials or payloads around ... you gotta charge when you gotta charge. There is no way for a fleet operator to "lock in" energy prices and those that get stuck paying peak charging rates will feel the hit.

 

[EVTrucking]

Just wanted to do my simple bird brain math. Rhetoric tells us EV is less expensive when it comes to maintenance. I'm going to give ICE the benefit of doubt and call maintenance a wash between EV and ICE. Because this is a Silverado forum, I'll use the Silverado EV and ICE as my base for calculation. I know there is a price difference in purchase. I'm not going to factor that. As an early EV adopter, I'm considering price as a luxury tax. So we're down to purely fuel cost. Let's do this.

In my area, Phoenix area, we have a Summer and Winter pricing. The difference being the peak (4pm - 7pm) rate in the summer is a penny more $0.29780. The off-peak (7pm - 4pm) is the same for both seasons $0.10790. In the winter, we get a bonus super off peak (10am - 3pm) @ $0.03166. Price for 87 gasoline in my area is currently at $3.59. Let's not bother thinking about how volatile price of gas can be $5 in a blink of an eye.

Let's first calculate the cost to fill the battery/tank. The Silverado EV has a 212kwh battery and the 5.3L & 6.2L both have a 24 gallon tank. Assuming 0 - 100%. I'm rounding EV cost per kWh up and rounding ice fuel cost down.
EV - 212 × $0.11 = $23.32 off peak charging
EV - 212 × $0.30 = $63.60 peak charging
ICE - 24 × $3.59 = $86.16

Now let's look at range. EV claim is 400 miles. For ICE, I'm going to base it on 20mpg even though the combined average is 17 for either the 5.3L or 6.2L. 24 gallon × 20 mpg = 480 miles.

Ok, finally tally. Cost ÷ Range = cost per mile
EV off peak - $23.32 ÷ 400 = $0.0583/mile
EV peak - $63.60 ÷ 400 = $0.159/mile
ICE $86.16 ÷ 480 = $0.1795/mile

Now, I gave all the leverage I can to ICE. My bird brain doesn't get it. With all the distractions out of the way, how the hell does it cost the same to fuel an EV as it does an equivalent ICE truck. Even if I'm a total idiot and all I do is charge during peak hours, I'm still saving $300 over a course of 15000 miles per year. That's not including the distractions like additional ICE maintenance cost, volatile fuel costs, EV savings from existing solar installations, etc.

For some of you thinking I'm on one side or the other of the ICE vs EV debate, I'm not. I'm never going to give up my 6.2L Camaro. But there is plenty of room to include an EV truck in our garage as well. Maybe I'm not the bird brain after all.

Tantrum over.

Your math looks reasonable.

In ID our peak rate is $.13/kWh and off peak is $.07/kWh. Season independent.

 

[HawaiiEV]

I think the MSRP of comparable ICE and BEV vehicles probably a larger factor…